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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
   |
Posted - 2010.02.20 18:25:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 20/02/2010 18:27:30
 Originally by: Sokratesz
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Once again we see the maturity and actual age of our CSM at work.
Great job.
*golf claps*
Now as to the OP.
First off let me appluad you for not going emo-rage-rant on your post... at least you where decent enough to be eloquent.
Secondly... not going to happen.
I've been playing for about 2 years...if not more... and if there's one thing I've learned... war-dec'ing... as stupid and absolutely ridiculous as it is... mechanics wise... is not something that needs to be eliminated from the game.
There are some very clear points I've learned from this war-dec'ing system.
1: 80 to 99% of the war-dec's I've encountered are all done for the expressed purpose of greifing.
Not all are like that... there are some who target you to make an effort to nerf your logistics pipeline... such as 0.0 alliances or whs operations... yet they never really follow you.. they just station camp there asses off... pathetic.
2: Said greifers are typically cowards... they refuse to leave the safety of high sec and as soon as you step out side into low-sec or WHS... they generally do not follow as they are now subject to getting shot at. This means they are geared to shoot down carebears and not other PVP'ers.
3: War-decs only end when there killboard eff. goes down or they get bored. As such its never a matter of ISK... and they tend to cheat the system by ending the war-dec and starting it up again to lower the rates when possible. War-decs as such are very cheap and cost literally nothing.
Only gets expensive if they are stacked (multiple war-decs on target) or its an alliance. And typically they won't go after an alliance unless its an soft target.
4: War-decs as such do not serve any purpose other than to deal out easy kills and make it an overused excuse to say its PVP game only and that's that. Funny enough the excuse to tell them to go NPC doesn't work when you have suicide ganking at an all time high... imagine that.
So yeah.... War-dec is broken... its frakked up... its abused... exploited... don't even get me started.
So why do I not support this?
Because there are no other methods in taking action against harassment.
So like it or not... its here to stay.
You'll love this tho.
IMHO... there is absolutely no reason what so ever to be a corporaiton in high sec space.
Seriously... its stupid.
Unless your PVP'ing.... manufactureing (and odds are most are solo corps) or strong enough/intimdating enough to keep out of trouble... you have no business being in a corporaiton or being a member of one if your going to be a carebear.
You make just as much money (more in many cases) and do better in NPC.
Teams can exsist outside of a corporation... a corporaiton is nothing more than a formality with some minor advantages...
With mailing-lists... chat rooms... cheap hosting... you can get one put together with minimal effort.
So sorry mate... you should join an alliance that's strong enough to deal with it... or move to 0.0 space.
It doesn't remove the risk... but the rewards make up for it if your able to hold your own out here.
If I end up going to high sec... I will not be in a corporation of any kind... that I can assure you. (unless I decide to join one that's strong enough to deal with the problem)
EVE is not PVE online or PVP online... its EVE Online.
Don't let anyone tell you differently.
So in conclusion... not supporting.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.02.20 21:25:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Shivani
Edited by: Shivani on 20/02/2010 20:41:20
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Shivani
Edited by: Shivani on 20/02/2010 16:58:11
Originally by: Sokratesz
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
And you are who?
enjoying an iceland trip off of your sub money atm
Dunno, how CCP is hiring their CSMs, but obviously they anre't aware of you no showing any kind of respect for the paying customer.
Luckily, you are only a CSM not a DEV, so it is not your call what happens and what doesn't happen.
I'd advice CCP to do some quality selection ammong their CSMs.
CSM are elected by the players... CCP doesn't do much else beyond that.
Malcanis - U Mad?
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.02.21 00:56:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Shivani
Luckily, you are only a CSM not a DEV, so it is not your call what happens and what doesn't happen.
I'd advice CCP to do some quality selection ammong their CSMs.
You would be sooo dissapointed if you knew what happened today. Also drake, being csm doesnŠt prevent me from laughing at stupid ideas.
Didn't say you couldn't... or could.
Just saying... nice image to project to the people...
Not very bright.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.02.23 06:48:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 23/02/2010 06:50:36
I'm sorry... but I am really getting sick and tired of hearing "Wardecs allow industrialists to attack competitors" as an excuse or an valid argument.
That is utter bull**** and you know it.
Since when has an industrialist corporation ever war-dec'd?
In case you people forgot... you make nothing in PVP'ing... there is no profit... ergo... 99% of the indies in high sec won't even bother... they just go somewhere else or hire a merc to deal with the problem.
So stop coming up with excuses and assumptions and start dealing in facts.
Fact - War-decs are DOMINATED by greifers who seek to PVP soft targets.
Fact - War-decs are DOMINATED by corporations seeking to disrupt logistics in 0.0
Now maybe I'm just a guy in a cave but I have never heard of an indy corp war-dec'ing an another for indy reasons.
POS take down? Doesn't qualify... and most hire a merc to handle that.
99% of indy corps are always on the receiving end from some pvp corporation or some such.
Its both hilarious and totally stupid to see people tell me and everyone else "oh but it allows ______ to do this to an another corp"
Wake up... just come out and say it.
Stop lying to yourselves.
You'll live longer.
And let me emphasize that while I have an issue with the excuse that I just blew away... it is in no way a valid argument for me to say war-decs should be nerfed... or buffed for that matter.
Just don't put the blame or reasoning in the equation that wardecs are useful in THAT context. Useful or not... they aren't using it... because there's no point to it.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.02.24 02:30:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tason Hyena
Originally by: Malcanis
Um, why would an industrial corp dec anyone? That would be pretty stupid and put their assets at risk for no reason. They pay mercenaries to do the wardeccing.
But yeah anyway, well done for working out that most rational people prefer to start fights when they're likely to win...
...u mad, bro?
No I think his point is that the industrial corp argument is used to justify the need for hi-sec wardecs, and it really isn't something that happens. So he's annoyed when it is used as a counter-argument.
Remind me to buy you a drink when WIS comes out.
o7
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.02.26 15:54:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/02/2010 16:06:16
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/02/2010 15:57:31
Bagehi - Thank you so much for proving to us that the art of bull****ting is not lost on PVP'ers.
I haven't laughed that hard in a long time.
Whats ridiculous is your bold faced enough to actually argue something that is obviously wrong and false.
I've known many many industrialist corporations... and they don't even pull some of the crap you even CLAIMED to do.
Only corporations that do that are Greifing PVP'ers. PVP'ers don't like industry and only go so far as to make sure they have enough ISK to do whatever it is they want to do. I know very few who are actually good at both things as it is.
What you claimed are very (if at all) rare incidents and only possible when your corporation just happens to have a capable and good enough PVP force... that or you used a second corporation or hired a merc live everyone else.
Please... give it up.... we can see right through you.
Industrialists don't have time to "gank" freighters... What the heck kind of argument is that?
You have any idea how much firepower and effort it takes to gank a freighter?
Sure as hell won't be in a war-dec unless the other corproation is really that stupid!
(And sad to say I've seen some but even then everyone knows its stupid to drag a freighter out in a war dec! DUH!)
We don't have time to war-dec because "someone stole our omber belt".
There are hundreds upon hundreds of asteroids out there... they just move on to a different system.
Or move out.
Honestly... why do people keep this tripe up.
War-dec's are not a personal thing... please... grow up... stop using childish reasoning for once.
War-decs are broken... but nerfing them or buffing them is a waste of time because it ends up unbalancing the whole system.
My "personal" issue is the asshats who come up with stupid arguments.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.02.26 23:27:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 26/02/2010 23:28:59
The problem is... while there are many fail corps... there are legitimate start ups.
Shadow Cadre is... was... still is one of these corps.
We are a small and financially poor at best... most of our assets are in the ships we just barely are able to afford.
We can't generate income or bother to mine or manufacture because we get war-dec'd every f'ing time we turn around.
And we don't do a damn thing... we don't smacktalk (I insta-kick anyone who does pretty much).
We don't "attract attention" and we sure as hell don't compete as we have nothing to compete with.
All we get is "oh we saw you flying a battlecruiser" and they war-dec you.
War-decs target easy prey..they never target anyone who is bigger or stronger than you are.
With the exception of addicts that are few and far between of course (Been reading "The Taxman" from the IRS...great writing!).
basically we just wanted to mind our own "boring mediocre" business. Our intention from the start was to get wealthy enough to be able to strike it out on our own in 0.0 or WHS.
But due to the war-dec crap... we always end up jumping from alliance to alliance.. ultimately we ended up living in 0.0 and at least here we can do what we want and not worry too much about getting harassed. (not that we don't... but at least we got some good friends out here who are bloodthirsty enough to handle that problem).
Again... I'm agianst war-decs on principle... but removing them is a mistake.
I'm not foolish enough to say that they should be removed all together.. then high sec would grow out of control.
but something has to be done to balance it out... for the small time corps starting up and for the epic fail corps who smack talk out that needs to be crushed.
If you don't get a solution to that problem in whatever changes are wrought... you will run into a total chaos problem... scaring off new players... or a status quo where things get stale.
As it is Shadow Cadre will never have a corp in high sec... we will be NPC because of that threat.
Most of our membership are too busy to deal with pvp crap... we have only a scant few hours to play and that's that.
(I post often because my job is boring but won't allow EVE time : O P Sucks to be me)
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.02.27 00:40:00 -
[8]
Originally by: James Lyrus
The difference between a failcorp and a 'legitimate startup' is that one takes responsibility for it's own continued existence, and doesn't presume a 'right' to be there.
You're quite correct - most war decs are selective in their targets - there's no shortage of failcorps out there, so why should they pick on yours if it doesn't suck?
Sometimes there's reasons for it, like a corptheft, smacktalker, canflipper, whatever. Other times it's just because you look like the kind of corp that isn't going to fight back, and is going to die pointlessly and drop good loot. The way to stop this happening is to stop making yourself a target - there's no shortage of ways to do this, and the easiest one is 'stop being the fish in the barrel'.
Problem is we've done it all short of the abusive/exploitive hiding in NPC corps to evade war-dec.
So in short its a total and utter waste of time to lecture ME (of all people) as to how to get around it.
The point is there is no way around it... end of discussion (as far as we are concerned).
I don't infer the right to exsist... but I do think this is nigh practically harassment on the greatest levels.
And the reasons for WHY they war-dec us are always the same... the same reason I give everyone else that complains.
Because they can.
They don't need a reason.... and the ones they come up with are epic fail to begin with. (Mining permit would be the most utterly stupid one I can think of off hand)
So please... don't give me the gritty details of how to get around it and how to evade it... because when it gets right down to it... if your in a corp... they can war-dec you no matter who you are or what your doing.
They will war-dec you... regardless... its just a question of who and what.
You could be casually flying a little industrial hauler that's empty and they war-dec you because they see you all the time in some market hub.
never mind the guy smack talking for 1vs1's and dis-hororing them with a neut repper etc..etc..etc..
Ultimately its a greifing tool... and nothing but. Some use it for other reasons... others use it for legitimate reasons... but overall 9 times out of 10 its to greif someone for something as simple as desire.
How do we fix it? I don't have the slightest idea... every suggestion I've seen would bring too much favor to high sec or ruin high sec with non-stop carnage worthy of low-sec and 0.0.
Like it or not... industrialists (carebears as I loath to be told as I prefer industrialist with teeth) are here to stay... you have no ammo...no ships..no nothing without us.
But they don't give a crap..and come up with all kinds of excuses.... so yes... the debate will likely continue on for an another 3 to 5 years or so.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
========================= |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Looney Toons.
|
Posted - 2010.02.27 15:36:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 27/02/2010 15:37:48
Originally by: James Lyrus
Drake, you're missing something here. We are an industry focussed corp, and have been for 5 years. We've never really had a problem. Actually, if someone would like to wardec us, that would be lovely. It serves very nicely as a training exercise.
That's why I would 'lecture' you - because I have quite literally 'been there, done that' and that's why I assert that the current scenario is not a problem.
Wars aren't griefing, any more than mining someone elses roids are griefing, or undercutting them on the market.
The mines in minesweeper aren't 'griefing' you. They just part of the game - part which separates the men from the boys. (OR the Carebears from the Industrialists with Teeth if you prefer)
"because they can" is true enough, but you're projecting altogether too much animosity onto another player. It's more like 'because they can, and because it'll work'. If they don't get any kills during the war, or worse end up losing ships, then they probably won't bother in future. It really is that simple - 'griefing' you specifically really isn't worth the effort, unless you've gone out of your way to annoy.
Oh, and you'll probably find that most of the 'griefers' you refer to, are more than capable of doing their own manufacturing and industry. The strategic thinking team player who's effective in PvP is almost certainly also going to be effective should they choose to turn their hand to industry as well.
How nice of you to have a very lucky 5 year run streak.
I stand by what I said... if you want to take it out of context or misinterpret what I'm saying then go right on ahead.
Bottom line is.. the mechanic is broken and the age old excuses people keep coming up with are bull****.
That goes for both sides... war-decced and war-deccer.
And just because you've had little to no trouble doesn't mean everyone else hasn't.
You can pep talk us all you want... you can attempt to rationalize all you want. Won't work.
Because the facts are still there.. the history of what we've had to see first hand is still there.
Alot of EVE is based on luck and various small choices... perhaps we've made some mistakes... that's what makes EVE so great... the sandbox is big and crowded in high sec... probability of escaping/getting someones attention shifts all the time.
Fact remains... if I go back to high sec... it would be stupid to be in a corporation that lives in high sec unless you have a capable and good sized PVP force or skilled in such ways where you can handle it.
Trying to retool an industrialist.... to PVP without getting an additional account... is wholly stupid and utter tripe at best.
And war-decs as a vacation? Only works if it happens once a month.
Back-to-back-to-back war-decs and war-decs that stack on top of each other quickly shoots that down.
And for what reasons did we get war-dec'd so often?
None at all... because they wanted to and they did.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
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